Obamanomics

Barack Obama's economic philosophy has been a mystery to me for most of this campaign. Most people on the liberal blogs assume he is anti-DLC because he is running against Hillary Clinton. But any serious look at his policy prescriptions show them to be similar to DLC proposals and to the right of John Edwards's and Hillary Clinton's progressive populism, as documented in numerous Paul Krugman columns. Obama himself has been pretty cagey and non-committal about his views on economics, sticking to Democratic boilerplate. An article published next month in the New York Review of Books, Economics: Which Way for Obama?, sheds some light on the intellectual underpinnings of an Obama economics.

The article describes Obama's advisers (such as Austan Goolsbee and Cass Sunstein) and plans as out of the University of Chicago, but not of Milton Friedman's "Chicago School". Sunstein describes their approach, in the book reviewed, as a Third Way libertarian paternalism:

Libertarian paternalism is a relatively weak, soft, and nonintrusive type of paternalism because choices are not blocked, fenced off, or significantly burdened. If people want to smoke cigarettes, to eat a lot of candy, to choose an unsuitable health care plan, or to fail to save for retirement, libertarian paternalists will not force them to do otherwise--or even make things hard for them. Still, the approach we recommend does count as paternalistic, because private and public choice architects are not merely trying to track or to implement people's anticipated choices. Rather, they are self-consciously attempting to move people in directions that will make their lives better. They nudge.

But to the degree that their approach is "libertarian", it is not progressive:

Once you concentrate on the reality that people often make poor choices, and that their actions can harm others as well as themselves, the obvious thing to do is restrict their set of choices and prohibit destructive behavior. Thaler and Sunstein, showing off their roots in the Chicago School, rule out this option a priori: "We libertarian paternalists do not favor bans," they state blankly. During a discussion of environmental regulations, they criticize the Clean Air Acts that banned some sources of air pollution and helped to make the air more breathable in many cities. "The air is much cleaner than it was in 1970," they concede, "Philosophically, however, such limitations look uncomfortably similar to Soviet-style five-year plans, in which bureaucrats in Washington announce that millions of people have to change their conduct in the next five years."

Their theory justifies many of Obama's economic ideas that have been controversial to progressives. Such as not mandating health care coverage, restricting his public insurance plan from competing in the most profitable insurance markets, avoiding direct government intervention into the mortgage crisis, describing Social Security as "in crisis", and Obama's recent attacks, in an appearance on Fox News, on the Clean Air Acts:

OBAMA: Well, I think there are a whole host of areas where Republicans in some cases may have a better idea.

WALLACE: Such as.

OBAMA: Well, on issues of regulation, I think that back in the `60s and `70s, a lot of the way we regulated industry was top down command and control. We're going to tell businesses exactly how to do things.

And I think that the Republican party and people who thought about the margins came with the notion that you know what, if you simply set some guidelines, some rules and incentives for businesses, let them figure out how they're going to for example reduce pollution. And a cap and trade system, for example, is a smarter way of doing it, controlling pollution, than dictating every single rule that a company has to abide by, which creates a lot of bureaucracy and red tape and oftentimes is less efficient.

This background helps me understand where Obama is coming from when he says these things, and to have a better grasp of how he is likely to govern. It helps me put some of his off key (for a progressive) statements in his Cooper Union economic speech into context. He is a moderate, small government believer in market based solutions, not an economic progressive. The approach may also explain Obama's appeal to "Libertarian Democrats" like Markos Moulitsas Zúniga of DailyKos, and Obama's problems appealing to working class voters.

For comparison, I wrote a diary back in January describing Hillary Clinton's economic philosophy. She has moved on from her husband's centrist policies and embraced Keynesian government intervention to solve the health care crisis and widening income inequality:

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton said that if she became president, the federal government would take a more active role in the economy to address what she called the excesses of the market and of the Bush administration.

Thanks to Anglachel for drawing my attention to the NYRBooks article.



Display:


Re: Obamanomics (2.00 / 1)

We are able, I would hope, to have a reasonable debate on these issues.

I'm of two minds.  As an asthmatic, I heartily approve of the smoking ban here in Akron.  Bars, restaurants, and venues can not allow smoking.  I can go out again.  It's great.

But even with that, I do not like the restriction on the freedom to choose one's way of life.

Coercion is never to be undertaken lightly.  I am leery of mandates.  Remember what happened when the several states mandated auto insurance?  Prices went up.  I'm not saying that will happen here, but it might.

It makes sense to consider how things went in the past, and learn from it.

I'm for single-payer, but frankly I doubt it will work unless people start living more healthily.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 01:57:47 AM EST

Re: Obamanomics (2.00 / 1)

Obviously I am a Hillary partisan, but I am honestly interested in where Obama is coming from. I prefer deeper policy debates to the superficial or tactical topics that currently populate the diaries here. Not that I don't engage in those topics with gusto myself.

My own position is more liberal than progressive, so I also chafe against some aspects of the nanny state. But I think Mr. Cassidy is pointing to a deeper difference in this article.

Take single payer versus the various hybrid health care systems proposed by our candidates this cycle. Edwards and Clinton decided that single payer was too big a leap to accomplish in two terms, so they constructed plans that create a public insurer who competes with private insurers for all business. Their theory is that the public insurer, through Medicare and VA style cost control and low overhead, will drive private insurers out of the market and prepare the way for public single payer.

Obama's plan does not do that. His public plan is prohibited from competing with private insurance for large business contracts, the largest and most profitable pool. That difference in the plans only make sense in light of an economic theory like Sunstein's, where large government plans are never preferred to market based "nudges". Obama's plan also places a lot of emphasis on a National Health Insurance Exchange, a market based way to "nudge" insurers into providing better coverage, which would head off momentum toward single payer.


by souvarine on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:22:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

The thing is, I'm rather pragmatic in this matter.  I don't especially care which system we use, so long as it gets practically everybody covered who wants to be.

And no, I'm not using "wants to be" as code.  If there's somebody out there who doesn't want it and won't pay for it, I've got serious problems with force.

This issue matters to me, but my thoughts are hardly finalized, and I'm not too picky.  Either candidate will greatly improve the situation providing the Senate isn't gonna kill it.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:27:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (2.00 / 1)

And I have a serious problem if someone doesn't "want to" pay for health care, but will leave the rest of us to pay for their overly expensive care when they show up in an emergency room.

True liberals recognize that for both pragmatic and moral reasons, programs such as Social Security and health care are important to our society and the only way to make them work is to have all people participate.


by LakersFan on Sat May 31, 2008 at 03:35:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Pork (none / 0)

It seems to me that Obama's economic proposals are vague. I've also heard that he has been a big defender of pork in his past. But - we really need much, much more. We need to incentivize businesses to hire here in the US in a long term, lasting way. Otherwise, when subsidies end, the jobs will disappear. There is a school of thought - I hate to use the words, but its called cargo cult economics, that believes that if you build highways, airports, etc. that business to use that new infrastructure will suddenly materialize, even though the economic conditions that would support that new economic growth require much more in the way of new ideas and methods.
Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Comprehensively cover 100%, not only the healthiest 80%
by architek on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:14:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

once again, you're wrong... (none / 0)

i'm quite confident that you knew that.  four more days...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:25:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

So I'm not a "true liberal" because I'm skittish about forcing people into a system they may not want to be in?

Look, I'm not slamming the door shut on a mandate, but I do believe in personal freedom and, to me, we cannot afford to be cavalier about that sort of thing.

There is room for honest disagreement among friends on this one.  Don't preach ideological orthodoxy to me.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:14:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

I consider things such as Social Security and public education, etc. to be "truly liberal" in that we as a society have agreed to all contribute to and participate in for the benefit of society at large. Because of the huge financial burden health care has on individuals, businesses, and our nation, health care has become an issue of this magnitude. The only solution is the "liberal" one -- one where everyone contributes and participates. We've already tried "laissez-faire" route of leaving people on their own to be covered, or not, and the results have been disastrous.

I'm not really into ideology or labels. I want pragmatic solutions to real problems. But I also happen to think that the "liberal" solution to many problems is also the most pragmatic one.


by LakersFan on Sat May 31, 2008 at 03:24:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

excellent observations - good diary (2.00 / 2)


by tornsneaker on Sat May 31, 2008 at 01:58:45 AM EST

Agreed. For the most liberal (2.00 / 4)

Senator in the Senate, he's not particularly progressive. If he's going to be the nominee, I really wish he'd change his healthcare plan. That's what turned me off to his candidacy in the beginning.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:06:39 AM EST

Re: Agreed. For the most liberal (none / 0)

I think once Obama is in office the lay of the legislative landscape will determine in what direction his healthcare plan goes....but I don't think you are ever going to see him fully embrace the idea of a mandate- not after they fought about it through much of the early primary season.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:51:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I know, it's most unfortunate. n/t (2.00 / 2)


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:55:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Agreed. For the most liberal (none / 0)

Nah, I think he could embrace that idea within the next two months.  For the purposes of the general election, McCain would have been attacking his plan as "nationalized healthcare" in the same way that he would have attacked Hillary's plan.  The rhetoric in the general election debate would be the same.  Obama could just say that he saw the light about her plan and adopt it just as she can say she saw the light on his social security plan.  Politicians want to win and they'll say anything that gives them an edge; adopting Hillary's plan might provide him with that edge.


by Blazers Edge on Sat May 31, 2008 at 03:01:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Agreed. For the most liberal (2.00 / 1)

Obama supports universal health care. By which I mean single-payer. If there's a blowout - by which I mean significant majorities in both houses and him in the WH - there's a decent chance his "plan" will be scrapped in favor of a single-payer system.


by mattw on Sat May 31, 2008 at 04:41:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

That explains why the corporate media love him so much.  


by LakersFan on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:08:36 AM EST

Re: Obamanomics (2.00 / 2)

Back in January, Hillary outlined her views on economic policy in a long interview with the New York Times.  Back then, I was still an Edwards supporter, and I was stunned because I felt Hillary was describing EXACTLY where the Democratic Party ought to be on these issues.  I still feel that way.

I'm not prepared to say Obama is significantly to the right of Hillary on these issues, but he definitely has the wrong advisors and doesn't hit the right themes as much as I would like.  I'm prepared to wait and see what we get from him.

I'm a big believer in SMART market-based solutions, as opposed to the Republican concept of market-based solutions which is nothing more than "trust in the market to work everything out."  One of the great things is that, when you devise a market-based solution that actually works, it's much more easy to sell across the aisle as a political matter.  The Clinton/Edwards health care plan is a market-based solution for moving towards single-payer, although Edwards was more explicit about selling it in those terms.

The big question for Obama is whether he can use the language of market-based solutions to sell policies that are actually progressive.  I will keep my fingers crossed.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:09:34 AM EST

Re: Obamanomics (2.00 / 1)

I think Hill is the safer bet than Obama but some of her economic proposals are very leftish in my opinion.  Her proposal that we take a "timeout from trade" and her plan to freeze mortgage forclosures for three months are to my left economically.

Perhaps Obama's more moderate stance on economic issues explains why he has so much appeal among independents, a group that trends wealthier than most members of the Democratic party.  I think he's walking a risky path playing it this way considering that all he would have needed to win against McCain is to receive the same 89% support of Democrats that Kerry.


by Blazers Edge on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:21:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

This is hard to characterize.  I am pretty moderate on economic issues.  And I don't agree Hillary's timeout and trade or her plan to freeze foreclosures (though I see both as pretty innocuous, especially if they are only for a few months, and Obama's rhetoric on trade hasn't been any better than Hillary's),

However, I also strongly favor Hillary's healthcare plan over Obama's and I disagree with Obama's plan to raise the social security payroll taxes (paid by employer and employee). And these are more important points to me as the differences are more stark on these critical issues.


by markjay on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:12:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (2.00 / 2)

Obama, and for that matter Goolsbee and Sunstein, are not laissez faire conservatives. They believe in active regulation. I think Obama would implement market-based solutions that move toward progressive policies.

But there are two areas where I do not think market-based solutions will work: health care reform and income inequality.  The health care industry will not feel market pressure because sick people can't shop for care. And accelerating CEO pay has shown no responsiveness even to share-holder pressure.


by souvarine on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:31:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

I do think he's more "liberal" or "progressive" when it comes to the issue of income inequality.  He sounded very much like one in the last debate when he discussed his reasoning for raising the capital gains tax to possibly 28% (before he walked back down to 20% in the Wallace interview).


by Blazers Edge on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:38:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

It sounds like we perceive the same advantage in Hillary's health care plan but you disagree with my characterization of it as a market-based solution.  I suppose it's something of a hybrid, but the market-based component is what truly makes it genius IMO.

CEO pay has always been a pet issue of mine, dating back to the days when I wrote a column for an institutional investor newsletter.  Reality is that it's only in the last decade that the stockholders have really started to assert themselves, and they've essentially gone from having no influence whatsoever to having a teeny tiny bit of influence.  What I'm suggesting is that there's still a whole lot of room to empower the shareholders and hopefully impact the process without direct government intervention.  The GOP and the business class they represent still fight it tooth and nail though, even the most incremental bits of progress.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:40:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (2.00 / 2)

I don't think working-class voters resist Obama (to the extent they do) because they sense libertarian elements in Obama's economic philosophy. Indeed, working-class voters tend to vote republican, so one might presume that they find republican rhetoric on taxes and market economies at least mildly attractive.

In any case, I don't think Obama's views should be equated with Cass Sunstein's. Sunstein just happens to be a close friend to Obama, and his role as advisor is rather vaguely defined as far as I can tell. I had an opportunity to meet and talk with Cass in January when he came to Charleston, SC to help with Obama's GOTV efforts (he even knocked on doors with us). From what I could gather, he and Obama tend to talk more about jurisprudence and constitutional issues more than economics (to be sure, that is Sunstein's area of expertise). It's worth noting that he really admires Obama's intellect and temperament.

And, personally, I think there is a lot to like about libertarian paternalism (except the name; it's not really libertarianism in any strong sense of the word since libertarians typically object to the government influence, per se, as it concerns the kinds of decision-at issue). Liberalism takes liberty seriously (hence, the name), and coercive approaches should be reserved for only the most harmful behavior. There's no need to ban trans-fats, for instance. And, there are also serious problems with mandates (from the standpoint of justice), which I've described at length on this blog before.

Goolsbee probably has Obama's ear more than Sunstein when it comes to economic matters. Goolsbee is part of the behavioral economics school, and Ezra Klein had a good article some time ago about Goolsbee's views and the extent to which they are manifest in Obama's approach. A lot of Goolsbee's work as involved tax policy, which explains why Obama addresses tax fairness as often as he does. Also, I think Obama does see a lot of virtue in market solutions, and I think that's perfectly fine (As Amartya Sen said, being against markets is like being against conversation; it's just exchange). But, I don't see how anyone can look at Obama's policy paper and think that he's timid about government programs. Instead, as the Ezra piece noted, Obama wants to make government involvement cleaner. Actually, I think Ezra quoted some Obama advisors as saying that Obama advocates something like an Ipod government.

In any case, I don't think it's productive to talk about this as progressive or not. It's a different way of achieving similar objectives. And, if you're going to employ a term like "progressive," specify what you mean so that we can determine whether it's meaningful that Obama deviates from that orthodoxy in certain respects. Personally, I don't find those labels very helpful. Indeed, you'll rarely hear economists or political philosophers refer to themselves as progressives. Instead, they fill up really big books with specific ideas that--hopefully--resist the intellectual shortcuts that such labels foster.


by DPW on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:38:56 AM EST

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

I take your point about the term "progressive", but what term is more descriptive? Libertarian paternalism (for lack of a better name) versus laissez faire conservatism versus what, for traditional Democratic economics?


by souvarine on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:51:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

I guess I just find the term "progressive" very nebulous. Liberalism has a much more theoretical foundation in political philosophy, so I don't mind that term as much (of course, liberalism has so many varieties, that it's not all that informative without further description, for instance, Rawlsian liberalism).

Ultimately, though, I guess I would just prefer we discuss the merits of particular approaches or policies without dismissing them outright as unprogressive. I don't think you've done that, and your comments in the thread evince a rather fair-minded consideration of what Obama might be offering.

As far as libertarian paternalism, specifically, I think two distinct considerations should concern good liberals. First is the political morality of certain coercive measures. That is, does the government have the authority to interfere coercively with certain decisions (often threatening punishment for failure to comply). The second consideration is empirical (as opposed to normative) and concerns the efficacy of competing proposals. Are noncoersive strategies more likely to produced desired outcomes (all things considered) than coersive strategies? Generally speaking, coersive strategies include high enforcement costs, but they often produce a higher compliance rate. This question is empirical rather than normative, so the answer isn't going to be categorical.


by DPW on Sat May 31, 2008 at 03:10:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (2.00 / 1)

One other thing I would note is that there was a panel a while back on cspan, featuring econ advisors for many of the candidates (Clinton, McCain, Guiliani, and Edwards, as I recall). Gene Sperling (for Clinton) and Goolsbee (for Obama) were, in my opinion, far better than the others, and they tended to hit a lot of the same notes when describing their social objectives in general terms. I think the differences arise in specific strategies, with Goolsbee seeming more focused on procedural fairness and distributive justice, as opposed to strategies designed to acheive specific outcomes (you might say his views sounded more deontological than utilitarian, which is odd considering how utilitarian economists tend to sound). The video was available online a while back, but I can't find a link now.

For what it's worth, McCain's econ advisor was an incoherent moron. Guiliani's dude just seemed heartless.  

Also, here are some links you might be interested in reading.

Cass's rough description of Obama's political approach.

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?i d=8200e5c2-a250-4532-b318-6182083b698e&a mp;p=4

Here's the article by Ezra I referred to above.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?arti cle=the_democrats_choice_manager_or_visi onary


by DPW on Sat May 31, 2008 at 03:40:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (2.00 / 4)

I can't remember who said it, but the best description of Obama's beliefs about economic policy is this: he's a "reconstructed" liberal.  What is that?  Someone shares all of the goals Dems have had since the New Deal era, but he thinks the critics of "old school" regulation who emerged during the 1980s and early 90s essentially won the debate.

He's not a DLC type.  He clearly doesn't have any problem with the idea that one of the legitimate functions of the federal government is to assist those who have low incomes and redistribute wealth from the top down.  Eg., his proposal to end the cap on the income which is eligable for the FICA tax.  If Obama becomes president the highest wage earners will pay approx. 10% more of their incomes in taxes than they are today (Bill Clinton never did anything like this).

The excerpt you cited which drew a distinction between the "Chicago school" and "libertarian paternalism", I think, doesn't really capture what this critique of "old school" regulation is about.  The central belief isn't that government should favor individual freedom over other more utilitarian goals.  It's that old school regulation is deeply inefficient, creates perverse incentives, and can't adapt as fast as circumstances will require.

This is not a Republican vs. Democratic debate.  It's more like the p vs. q debate which occurred in the realm of environmental regulation during the 1990s--is it more efficient to enforce quotas on polluters or give them some ability to pay for the true costs of their actions? (just checked your post again--in fact, that is the example Obama uses, but he's wrong to suggest that the Republicans originated this idea).

Similar question: should government handle transfer payments by sending checks to people?  Or should it create a system of deductions so that people who are entitled to such payments don't have to send money to the IRS?  They still get the assistance.

I don't agree with your characterization that Clinton's economic philosophy is necessarily more Keynsian or redistributionist.  If we're talking broad fiscal policy all she's proposed is to repeal Bush's tax cuts as they apply to the highest brackets (this is Dem boilerplate--Obama, and all of the other Dem candidates, support the same thing).  

What I found most interesting about Clinton's economic proposals, actually, was the deep faith in the sorts of top-down programs which could have come out of the Johnson administration.  There is a genuine policy disagreement here, but it's less about goals than means (but if one had to pick which candidate seems more in favor of taxing those at the top the answer, curiously, seems to be Obama).

Lastly.  Remember the whole bit about the gas tax holiday?  That's standard Clinton, and by that I mean she has a tendancy to pander (ie. endorses schemes which wouldn't have the effect she claims, but she does this anyway because she thinks, and perhaps rightly, that they sound good and will give her a political advantage).  Another example of this occurred earlier in the year when she talked about a 5-year freeze on ARMs (again, sounds wonderful, but if something like this were enacted it would screw up the housing markets for a long time, and so she backtracked).

Obama doesn't do this.  And what we're talking about, probably, is a generational difference which pertains to both beliefs about regulation (what is the best way for government to accomplish a goal) and how the Democrats should go about selling their agenda (Obama isn't trying to emulate Reagan, what he's aiming to do is immunize the Democrats against the critique which the Republicans came up with during the 1980s and 90s, eg. big government is bad, most tax monies are simply wasted, a top-heavy bureaucracy can run anything into the ground, regulators at heart are control freaks, etc.).


by IncognitoErgoSum on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:45:52 AM EST

Re: Obamanomics (2.00 / 1)

I should have been more clear that Obama and Clinton have largely the same ends in mind, and very similar priorities. The difference is the means. Clinton, unlike her husband and the DLC, definitely believes that the big economic problems we face now require some top-down big government solutions. Obama does not, with health care reform being the most glaring example of different means. I think they both agree that market solutions are required for a problem like global warming, though Clinton might be more willing to directly invest in particular technologies.

Your description of the DLC as being anti-income redistribution is not quite correct. The EITC is a DLC favorite. The DLC was more anti-union.


by souvarine on Sat May 31, 2008 at 03:07:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the eitc was a reagan favorite, as well... (none / 0)

the dlc and reagan seem to share similar attitudes about unions, as well...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:56:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (2.00 / 1)

It's that old school regulation is deeply inefficient, creates perverse incentives, and can't adapt as fast as circumstances will require.

Not to mention is much more vulnerable to cronyism and corruption.


by mattw on Sat May 31, 2008 at 04:44:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

I'm curious whether one of Obama's ideas will survive this election.  He's proposed to exempt senior citizens who make less than $50k a year from the income tax.  This hasn't gotten any play.  I'm not sure it's such a great idea (why shouldn't they pay their fair share?).  But this should put to rest this charge that Obama is some Reaganite in Democratic clothing (clearly he's not, this idea is no where on the GOP's agenda).


by IncognitoErgoSum on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:49:38 AM EST

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

I think the idea is that seniors earning so little are primarily relying upon social security checks. And, for one thing, there's a certian inefficiency and absurdity in taxing government-provided benefits (that's not to say it's not justifiable). There are other reasons to give seniors a break, I suppose, but I think there is a little pandering going on as well. It's a shame that they don't vote for him in exchange for these generous policies.


by DPW on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:55:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

I think there is some pandering going on, but one could make a social argument for doing this.  Who are seniors?  They're people who have spent their entire lives working and want to enjoy their sunset years despite modest means (not all, but only those making under $50k a year would be excluded).  What this would do is tinker with the social contract a bit--people who are eligable for retirement who choose to work can enjoy all of the fruits of their labor.  Similarly, this proposal would reward those who had saved in earlier years.  It's not a total give away.


by IncognitoErgoSum on Sat May 31, 2008 at 03:04:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

oops (none / 0)

for excluded I meant included.


by IncognitoErgoSum on Sat May 31, 2008 at 03:05:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This diary is highly recced. (none / 0)

This diary, and the comments are so much more what I wanted to debate this primary season as opposed to what is usually argued on this site.  Differences in policy as opposed to differences in political gaffes.

I do have to say that it's difficult to discern exactly what Obama's economic policies will be.  And I think that is because he doesn't have a firm grasp of those policies yet.  It's safe to say that Obama is not an economist but rather a lawyer and a politician, as is Clinton.  I truly believe that both will defer to policy advisers but will also be strongly influenced by their legal backgrounds and of course, the political climate.  I don't think we'll see Goolsbee as SecTres, so even using his background as an indication of future policy direction is a bit dubious.

I do think we'll end up with an economic policy that will attempt to highlight fairness (whatever that means).  I say this based on only anecdotal evidence from primary debates where Obama has stated on one policy or another that he feels his idea is fair.  For instance, he expressed that raising the capital gains tax would be fair since a large percentage of the very wealthy make a significant portion of their income in capital gains.  I happen to agree with him.  Unfortunately, when it comes time to pushing through this type of legislation we always find that fair means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.


by shalca on Sat May 31, 2008 at 04:23:51 AM EST

Re: This diary is highly recced. (none / 0)

"Fair" is a ridiculous word to use with respect to economics. Fair, meaning you keep what you earn? That's fair. Taking money from one person to give it to someone who didn't earn it is unfair.

or....

"Fair", as in - we all put in the same effort, we should all earn the same thing from it.

Two diametrically opposite viewpoints, two totally legitimate definitions of fair, and at least one of which is probably offensive to everyone (if not both).

"Fair" applied to capital gains simply because wealthy people earn a lot of money from capital gains strikes me as not particularly useful. We should be interested in the capital gains rate which is the fulcrum of "best for the economy" and "produces the most revenue". A rate that is too high encourages expatriation of funds. Ultimately, to even earn anything as a capital gain, your capital good has to appreciate, and that's typically going to be either inflation (for which there is little moral reason to tax anyone), or business growth. The latter is something which benefits all of us, and having a lot of liquidity without high tax rates makes us more economically agile, increases opportunities, encourages investment, etc.  There are legitimate arguments to be made for making capital gains - or some classes of capital gains - tax free. Even for a liberal. (I'm not advocating it, although any discussion that involves treating capital gains as if it is the ordinary income of the wealthy is just screwy to begin with)


by mattw on Sat May 31, 2008 at 04:58:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i'm not surprised... (none / 0)

that you wanted the debate to be on the issues (at an elevated level) -- i've heard democrats say that in every presidential campaign i can remember (going back to 1968).  nor am i surprised that souvarine has elevated the debate to this level (when she could).

but...

whatever campaigns should be about, what campaigns are about is choices.  the most fundamental choice that voters make is how much time they are going to spend paying attention to the campaigns buzzing around them.  many (most?) of us don't seem to understand that politics is a leisure activity, and we live in a society where there is fierce competition for people's leisure time in an era where it seems people have less leisure time.  so while i would never want to discourage a high level discussion of the issues among hard-core activists, let's not waste the voters precious time.  they won't allow us to (waste their time).

we democrats tend to believe that elections should be about the banquet of choices that candidates are offering.  this attitude fits with our reliance on the old fdr coalition, where everybody gets what they want.  but, the voters we need to talk to (and win) in every general election cycle don't connect with that approach.  they've basically rejected it, or they would be inside the tent, so to speak.  we can't communicate with them as if we assume (or believe) they should be inside the democratic tent.  we have to make it simple for them, and draw sharp contrasts between our side and the other side so that the "independent" voters -- or the people with the open minds to all sides, who you would think would entertain these kinds of debates on the issues -- can make a choice.  you'd like for the contrasts to favor our side.

republicans make it easy for voters.  for the most part, their candidates say they fit within their oft-repeated framework of smaller government, less taxes, family values and something else (i can't recall the four republican talking points this morning -- i should).  they got the whole country, mom and apple pie thing down.  since the late 1970s, the battleground for public opinion has been on republican terms, in part because we don't have an equally simplistic set of core beliefs that we can counter with.  we don't even have a quick and dirty definition of progressive (a very popular term for candidates and activists nowadays), let alone a defined set of core beliefs that we can pitch to voters.

i'd argue (strenuously) that the one candidate who's come up with the strongest contrast has been barack obama.  politics of the past versus hope for the future has been the strongest -- and longest -- contrast in this campaign.  and the campaign has been fairly consistent with it's message.  it hasn't hurt that hillary has stepped in to reinforce barack's message (what did those boxing gloves represent?  oh, yeah, the politics of the past).  i could talk more about how important message is to the campaign, but that's not my point for replying.

my point is really that we need both.  we need to have an elevated debate among our core activists, although i'm not sure i believe that debate should be in the midst of a campaign.  but we also need to distill the results of that debate to simple messages with strong contrasts with the republicans we are running against.

this reply is much different than the one i originally had in mind.  i wanted to reiterate that we live in a celebrity culture and what attracts attention in this era is personality and controversy.  issues are almost from a bygone era.  so i'll throw that out there.  these are incredibly important debates BUT they don't decide elections.  and we can't enact any of our good ideas unless we win elections...  


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:37:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'm not surprised... (none / 0)

For the most part, I agre with you.  But MyDD isn't the public at large.  I'm probably wrong about that last point since the debate here has mostly fit into your framework than it has the elevated discourse to which we both probably wish it adhered.  I blame this wholeheartedly on the piss poor education that the vast majority of Americans recieve in this country.

So are we stuck with these simple frameworks until we can raise a population that sees past talking points and 30 second ads?


by shalca on Sat May 31, 2008 at 06:32:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

Nice diary, and great discussion.

One thing we should add into the equation is the way that legislation is actually passed in this country.

Obama will certainly have the bully pulpit and will be able to guide the party in many domestic matters.  Hillary will have a lot of clout in the senate, though, and if the Democratic majority is as strong as some predict, she may actually be in a better position to craft, draft, and push through health care legislation that BHO will surely sign.

Or do I have things badly misunderstood?


by NeverNude on Sat May 31, 2008 at 05:56:33 AM EST

Excellent diary, Souvarine. (none / 0)

I have to say that my thoughts on this subject mirrors DPW's pretty closely.  And if I wasn't so tired I would flesh out my thoughts on the issue.  I think, though, that there is a resistance to the top-down management of the American regulatory system.  I think there is a desire among younger government interventionists to approach regulations with a greater sensitivity to grassroots concerns.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:04:45 AM EST

Re: Obamanomics (2.00 / 1)

Great diary. I totally agree with the analysis that Clinton and Edwards knew that it was too big a leap to go to single payer in one go. But that they made sure that door would open for it because the public insurer will drive the old inefficient private ones out of business. Obama's plan will never acheive universal coverage and is not going to improve anything.

There is one problem with libertarianism of any sort. When push comes to shove and the guy shows up at the emergency room without health insurance he expects to be fixed anyway. Which is the current system we have with 47 million not carrying insurance (not getting into why). And worst of the worst is Obama's plan that if you get sick you can now opt into the system. What a plan -not even I strongly believes in universal health insurance and paying my way but am healthy  will start to pay if I know I can get it anytime I need it. Talk about pandering.


by Bornagaindem on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:08:49 AM EST

well... (none / 0)

i'm not sure i would read everything you have into this piece.  i have two basic reasons (or anecdotes, as it were).

my first reaction would be that barack is about process.  he has this incredible desire to hear all sides of a debate before making a decision.  i've really only had one conversation (a fragment of a conversation, really) with barack in this area (economics).  back in 2003 or 4 (i remember the where, but not the when), he asked me about what i believed in the context of the conversation.  i'm fairly straight-forward on this, so it's easy to remember: i believe power should be diffused, not concentrated in any manner that allows a disproportionate advantage.  i'm skeptical of power being concentrated in the hands of government and down right afraid of power being concentrated in the market (the market is amoral, so it can have incredibly awful consequences; at least governments are dominated by people who can understand the moral consequences of their behavior).  barack's reply, as he tends to be, was to offer a double negative (something like, i don't disagree with that).  to that extent, i agree with the article:

The central tenet of the Chicago School is that markets, once established and left alone, will resolve most of society's economic problems, including, presumably, the mortgage crisis. Keynesians--old-school Keynesians, anyway--take the view that markets, financial markets especially, often fail to work as advertised, and that this failure can be self-reinforcing rather than self-correcting. In some ways, the behavioralists stand with the Keynes-ians. Markets sometimes go badly awry, they agree, especially when people have to make complicated choices, such as what type of mortgage to take out. But whereas the Keynesians argue that vigorous regulation and the prohibition of certain activities such as excessive borrowing are often necessary, behavioralists tend to be more hopeful about redeeming free enterprise. With a gentle nudge, they argue, even some very poorly performing markets--and the people who inhabit them--can be made to work pretty well.

the word i'd use, and i believe i've heard barack use, is balance.  in that sense, i'd bet that barack's guiding positions go back to his experience on the streets of chicago.  he wants to see steady improvement in people's lives -- and he's experienced that from his work in the streets.  he's experienced changing people's lives, and his entry into politics was to affect change on a larger scale.

i'd disagree with your comment about "Obama's problems appealing to working class voters."  until we got to ohio, we didn't really have problems connecting with working class voters.  there are plenty of those in iowa, south carolina and wisconsin (to name a few).

what barack has problems with is familiarity with voters and getting them to be comfortable with him.  he's new, and that's both an advantage and an albatross.  the reason we succeeded in some places (iowa, south carolina and wisconsin) while failing in others (new hampshire, nevada, ohio and pennsylvania) had very much to do with proximity and validators.  we were incredibly successful in the states where we had people who knew barack, people who's lives were helped by barack, etc come out and campaign for him.  voters in every state started out not knowing and being comfortable with the thought of barack as president.  in the places where "friends of barack" devoted considerable time, we won.  we took voters across that comfort level bridge that they needed.  in state after state, i heard people say the same thing: "wow, he even looks presidential."  they were open to it, and barack delivered.

i'm betting that you'll think about this and say, but if it's about crossing that bridge, how can barack's friends be everywhere in the general?  actually, they won't have to be.  in reality, only two states require that treatment.  others need some shoring up, but not the full FOB treatment.  the key now is the convention.  if we do the convention right -- and the floor battles won't matter if we do -- voters will see the same thing: "barack even looks presidential."  once voters imagine it, they see it for themselves.  then half the battle is won.

the other point i'd make is a story of a fund-raiser up on the north shore of illinois in 2003.  some rich muckety-muck had gathered his friends together in the early stages of barack's run for the senate.  this was when the machine was heavily backing a scion of chicago politics for the seat.  barack had given his pitch to the prospective donors at this guy's house and had left the room for him to close the sale.  while barack had left the room, he was not out of earshot.  and he didn't agree with what his funder was telling the prospective donors.  so barack rushed back into the room and corrected the fund-raiser.

there's an important lesson here, more true of barack than any politician i can think of today.  and that is, people see in barack their hopes and dreams, their political needs and desires.  and barack is willing to be that vessel -- until he disagrees with you.  then he will let you know.  that's why i think it's important to focus on the process with barack.  he's willing to listen to all sides -- but he won't agree with all sides.  that's why it is so important for people who disagree with barack to talk to him, share their point of view, and their rational behind it.  this is someone who can be influenced by that.  but lots of people confuse listening with agreement.

i can't say i know what barack's economic policies are going to be.  i'm much more familiar with his international and national security ideas.  but what i can say is, i know that i will be comfortable with what a president obama decides, because i know that he will listen to all points of view and make a good decision based on a plethora of input.  the other thing i can say is that i know that barack will stand up against what he disagrees with.  barack is a remarkable leader.  he's neither a george bush (who decides recklessly) or a bill clinton (who needs to convince you he's right -- geez, bill clinton and ariel sharon were two pees in a pod).  in the very least, barack is a transitional figure.  but he could be a transformational figure.  we don't know, but he could be.  we could use both at this point in history...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:22:17 AM EST

Re: Obamanomics (none / 0)

Great diary!  I really enjoyed this one.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:45:13 AM EST


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